New/Modification of Styles for Mead and Ciders

I didn’t have the time to read all posts, but apple wine, I believe, is a legal term in some states for every hard cider or for cider beyond a certain ABV, in that way it just replaces the word cider in that jurisdiction, and it shouldn’t be considered any different from cider.

Guys, keep working and maybe something good will come up, but so far I don’t see solid bases.
Similarly to what we do for beers, geographic origin and carbonation level hardly define a style. Same would be for variety of apples (in the same way as 2 IPAs with different hops are still the same style).
I feel that there should be a bit more of research on the origins and production methods to support the thesis.

Consider also all the producers from outside the 4 regions mentioned here; how do you classify their cider?
Do these regions provide “guidelines” (similar to recipes) that can be followed to replicate the same “style”?

Re. mead, I don’t think there are strong objections; at this point mainly it’s about resources.
We need to reclassify a few thousands meads (and this is not very painful), but we also need somebody with database access to download a couple of times the table of meads, and upload when the categorization is done; and right now there is no such resource available.
If Joe assigns somebody with database access, I can detail the plan, and Drake can organize a few admins for the reclassification.
Ask Joe.

This is more or less correct, which is why I am reluctant to use the standard German spelling of Apfelwein. However, carbonation level does make a different legal thing out of it, at least in Germany, where it would need to be called “Apfelschaumwein” (which is considered the replacement term for Cider, whereas they consider Apfelwein to be their own thing - Hessian Apfelwein is a protected geographical indication).

I think this statement is pretty nontrivial. For beers, we agree on this. In wine-like drinks, it is common to do it the other way. Hardly anyone would say that, for instance, Châteauneuf-du-Pape and Gigondas are not different wines.j

That said, next time I’m home and have some time I will search through the museums of local history and see if they have something on Moscht that is of use for us here.

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Many ciders use the carbonation level (Still/Sparkling-natural/Crackling-carbonated) in the cider’s name or as a base description for the marketing of cider. Certain types of ciders can’t be Sparkling/Crackling according to law in Quebec.

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@joet when resources are available could we get Mead - Melomel/Methyglyn?

It’s appropriate to have @Oakes review the requests. Josh, do you want approve, deny or pass?

I think Keeved cider definitely has a place in style guidelines as it relates to a specific production method that results in a very distinct cider. Most French cider uses this method, and it has historical roots in the South West of England where some producers such as Pilton have resurrected it with startling effects.

However it doesnt serve much purpose including just one cider sub-style. All others would have to be categorised. I’ll try and write a sensible style guide to include all main sub-styles.

In Quebec, Ciders are categorized this way.

Main style
LIGHT CIDER
STRONG CIDER
LIQUOROUS CIDER
FIRE CIDER / CIDRE DE FEU
ICE CIDER / CIDRE DE GLACE
FORTIFIED CIDER / CIDRE APÉRITIF

Cider Cocktails are considered light ciders for marketing but must be made from real cider.

Ciders with addition of fruits, maple, hop, spice, get the “Aromatized” mention.

Each cider are also either one of those 3 for the sake of carbonation:
STILL CIDER / CIDRE TRANQUILLE (flat)
SPARKLING CIDER / CIDRE MOUSSEUX (natural)
CRACKLING CIDER / CIDRE PÉTILLANT (CO2)

Then they can be from smooth to dry, more of a Tag thing.

We also have special mentions for CIDRE BOUCHÉ TRADITIONNEL and ROSÉ CIDER

Dont understand what light, strong or liquorous means. Or cider cocktails. Never heard the term crackling before.

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I try not to, they’re wobbly and I fall off.

Never actually seen a quince cider; is it actually a thing, or hazs it just been done a couple of times as a novelty. Obviously it’s in the apple/pear family, so don’t think this would need separating into any new “cider/perry with added shit” category, just into whichever of cider or Perry it’s closest to. Happy for any quince experts to decide though!

Here’s some part of the document (this is quite heavy, but interesting):

(4) “cidre bouché”: cider to which apple juice may be added, that is naturally effervescent, has undergone
fermentation in the bottle for not less than 4 weeks, has between 3.5 and 5.5 volumes of dissolved carbon
dioxide per volume of finished product, has a volatile acidity of not more than 0.8 g per litre expressed as g/L
of sulphuric acid, and has an actual alcoholic strength of not less than 1.5% by volume and not more than 7%
by volume;
(5) “cidre bouché on lees”: a cidre bouché that has matured on its lees for not less than 6 months;
(6) “traditional cidre bouché”: a cidre bouché on lees whose lees have not been removed from the bottle;
(7) “ice cider”: cider obtained by the fermentation of juice of apples that has a pre-fermentation sugar
content of not less than 30° Brix achieved solely by natural cold, producing a finished product with a residual
sugar content of not less than 130 g per litre and an actual alcoholic strength of more than 7% by volume but
not more than 13% by volume;
(8) “naturally sweet cider”: partially fermented cider that has an actual alcoholic strength of not less than
1.5% by volume and not more than 3.5% by volume before the addition of neutral alcohol or apple brandy,
producing a finished product with a residual sugar content of not less than 70 g per litre and an actual
alcoholic strength of not less than 15% by volume and not more than 20% by volume;
(9) “strong cider”: cider to which sugar or apple juice may be added before or during production,
producing a finished product with a residual sugar content of not more than 110 g per litre and an actual
alcoholic strength of more than 7% by volume but not more than 15% by volume;
(10) “light cider”: cider to which sugar or apple juice may be added before or during production,
producing a finished product with a residual sugar content of not more than 110 g per litre and an actual
alcoholic strength of not less than 1.5% by volume and not more than 7% by volume;
(11) “liquoreux cider”: cider that has a residual sugar content of not less than 80 g per litre and an actual
alcoholic strength of not less than 5% by volume and not more than 15% by volume;
(12) “cider cocktail”: an alcoholic beverage obtained from cider to which flavouring substances must be
added and to which sugar may be added, and that has an actual alcoholic strength of not less than 1.5% by
volume and not more than 7% by volume;
(13) “apple mistelle”: the alcoholic beverage obtained by adding neutral alcohol or apple brandy to apple
juice and that has an actual alcoholic strength of not less than 15% by volume and not more than 20% by
volume;
(14) “flavoured apple mistelle”: apple mistelle to which fruits, fruit juice, honey or maple syrup have
been added, the finished product having the sensory characteristics of apples;
(15) “fire cider”: cider obtained by the fermentation of juice of apples that has a pre-fermentation sugar
content of not less than 28 °Brix achieved solely by heat, producing a finished product with a residual sugar
content of not less than 80 g per litre and an actual alcoholic strength of more than 9% by volume but not
more than 15% by volume.
Québec amber, apple mistelle and flavoured apple mistelle are not Ciders. Cider cocktail is deemed to be light cider for the purposes of its marketing.

  1. Québec amber, aperitif cider, naturally sweet cider and apple mistelle must not be carbonated.
    Flavoured cider, ice cider, strong cider, light cider, liquoreux cider and cocktail cider may be artificially
    injected with carbon dioxide provided that the volume of dissolved carbon dioxide per volume of finished
    product is 1.5 to 2.5 or 3.5 to 5.5.

With quince bring a fruit, wouldn’t that just be classed as a fruit cider

That’s seems quite complicated. The USACM style guide seems more straightforward:

Standard Styles:
Modern Cider
Heritage Cider
Modern Perry
Heritage Perry

Specialty Styles:
Fruit Cider
Spiced Cider
Hopped Cider
Wood-aged Cider
Sour Cider
Ice Cider

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Actually USACM guide says fruit ciders are non-pome fruits, so with quince being pome fruit probably goes into Modern Cider style. Likewise Nashi pears to Modern Perry.

exactly. Quince is a fruit addition that does magic, but does not change the flavor profile in a way like cherries or cranberries do.

Modern / Heritage as style categories are too vague according to those descriptions and allow too much overlap. Not sure why highly acidic ciders would be classed as ‘Modern’.

Wood-aged is also a bit vague as it doesnt necessarily define the overall style. Westons oak-aged vintage and French oak-aged bouché are two different cider styles for example. Same for ciders with a sour element

I really don’t feel like we need that many.
Cider, Ice Cider/Ice Perry, Perry, Cider/Perry With Fruit.
Mead, Braggot, Possibly Mead with Fruit.

My Take would be:

Ciders:
Still Light Ciders (1,5% to 7% abv)
Effervescent Light Ciders (1,5% to 7% abv)
Still Strong Ciders (7%-15%)
Effervescent Strong Ciders (7%-15%)
Still Ice Cider / Fire Cider
Effervescent Ice Cider / Fire Cider
Fortified Cider

I’d make Ice Perry a separated style since it’s a perry, not a cider.

Any addition (hops, maple, fruits, spice, honey) would still be a Tag thingy as well as very specific sub-styles / regional styles (like Rosé, Normandy Ciders, Traditional Bouché)

And on the mead subject we could add Tej. The Ethiopian take on mead is substantially different from other meads because they always add this extra herb. Certainly a unique and well defined style.

Also, on another note, I know this is super different because the first time I drank tej I broke out in hives in Addis Ababa - had some kind of allergic reaction to the gesho herb.

Second time I was fine.

We would have to be careful on this, because this could result in many styles with almost no entry in it. Did you see the number of regional variations Meads have? Wikipedia lists 44 of them.

Many of them are are variations with fruits, spices, maple added just like ciders. Personnally (and this is even the case for Beers), I still think those belongs to Tags more than specific styles (Fruit Beers and Spice/Herb/Vegetable and Specialty Grains styles always bugged me)

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