and then you also get effervescent Ice Perry / Fire Perry? That might just be a stretch. Also, what about Givre?
And isn’t Fortified Cider usually unrateable because it mixes cider with spirits?
Where I’m from, the local Ciders traditionally use a mixture of apples and pears, and there exist Ice Cider versions of those too. In one year they might use more apples, in another year they might use more pears, depending on harvest.
The point of splitting cider into sub-categories is to acknowledge each distinct style according to production methods. I’ve tried to identify these below. Most cider would fall within these categories.
ENGLISH STYLE – NATURAL
ENGLISH STYLE – SPARKLING
COMMERCIAL (or a better name)
FRUIT CIDER
KEEVED
APPLEWINE
SIDRA / SAGARDOA
SPECIALIST
ENGLISH STYLE – NATURAL - These would generally include most traditionally made still cider, including ‘bag in a box’ ciders, and most still bottled ciders from small producers who adhere to traditional, seasonal cider-making methods that fall within CAMRA’s definition below. They must:
• not be pasteurised before or after fermentation
• not be filtered
• not receive enzyme treatment
• not contain preservatives or colouring
• not have the natural yeast replaced by a cultured yeast
• not have a nitrogen source added unless essential to start fermentation
• not be diluted
• only contain sweeteners if labelled Medium or Sweet, and then only if they are shown to be safe and do not affect the taste
• be produced from only freshly-pressed fruit, and
• not contain concentrate
• not contain extraneous carbon dioxde
ENGLISH STYLE – SPARKLING - these would be similarly high-juice cider, but pasteurised, and could include some concentrate juice. Many accessible sparkling ciders from independent producers around the world would fall into this category. Many modern cider producers throughout Europe and the US have been taught traditional English production techniques by producers such as Mike at Ross on Wye or Tom Oliver, so the term English-style seems to make sense.
COMMERCIAL (or a better name) – Made using concentrate apple juice, often highly watered down with as little as 35% juice content. Concentrate can be stored for long periods before water is added so can be made year-round, unlike the seasonal ciders in the above categories which are made in the Autumn. The process of adding water to concentrate breaks down flavour compounds, so they gain much of their flavour from sweeteners, artificial aromas and colourings resulting in unnaturally sweet, ‘artificial’ apple fruit character. ‘Alco-pop’ cider such as Rekorderlig, Kopparberg and Old Mout would also fall into this category.
FRUIT CIDER – can be both sparkling and non-sparkling and contain any fruit addition other than apple or pear. The aforementioned ciders in the previous category also commonly have berry additions, so it may be necessary to define these ciders as traditionally made, rather than commercial
KEEVED - A very specific cider-making process involving pulp oxidisation that produces a deep golden colour, brilliant clarity due to removal of protein and a full, naturally sweet flavour due to bottling before fermentation is complete. Keeved cider is made with predominantly bittersweet apples with a low acidity. This category would include all traditionally made French cider, and some English cider. French would not use the word ‘Keeved’ on the bottle label whereas English would always state ‘keeved’ on the bottle, due to differing in character from those in the first two categories.
APPLEWINE – a style of cider that has more in common with wine than standard commercial cider, with a slick wine-like acidity, often with high strength between 7% to 13% ABV. Examples can be found in Germany, Japan, Austria and Quebec. Could also include spritzy Brut cider, plus port and sherry-style ciders.
SIDRA / SAGARDOA
Asturias Sidra has a Protected Designation of Origin from the EU. Whereas French and English ciders rely on bittersweet apples, using small amounts of sharp apples for balance and aroma, Sidra blends around 40% sharp, 25-30% medium-sharp and just 10-15% sweet. It’s fermented with wild yeast with a high amount of volatile acidity from the acetic acid. Also called ‘Sagardoa’ in the Basque Country which has higher volatile acidity than Asturian sidra.
The overall character is sharp, often sour and mostly flat unless poured from height, as is the intended serving tradition, to generate a soft fuzzy carbonation
SPECIALIST - Ciders which don’t necessarily fall into the above categories would be hopped, spiced or wild yeast cider but I can’t think of a better name for these.
No time to elaborate on this further but no Apfelwein (Frankfurt area), Viez (Trier area) and porbably same with Most in Austrai and Switzerland is in the range of 7 to 13%. The difference is in the production process as during fermentation the natural CO2 which builds is released and not as in Cider or Cidre contained. So you get quite a flat drink (you are right there with your wine like thing). Apfelwein in the region 7 to 13% would called Apfelschaumwein which then is more similiar to Cider again but higher in ABV and with added CO2 for a effervescent mouthfeel.
But nonetheless thanks very much for your effort, this definitely needs a split up but as styles are overlapping its hard to find a proper subdivision.
Ok, yes I am a little inexperienced with German cider. I have had a few bottles which I remember did say ‘Apfelschaumwein’ on the label, but definitely had a slick wine-like mouthfeel. Those with more experience may be able to advise regarding this category.
good work, although I have to agree with @rhoihessegold on the Apfelwein thing. German Apfelwein can go as low as 2% ABV. It is actually pretty close to Sidra / Sagardoa in terms of flavor and I personally would not mind grouping those together, since Ratebeer traditionally does not care that much about terroir in the first place.
Many thanks to @minutemat and @Viper666.Qc for the input.
Ok im thinking more of the style of apfelwein that appears in tall thin bottles or cork & caged 375ml bottles and served as wine. I know other styles use the term apfelwein such as those thin light ciders in 1ltre bottles, but some could perhaps be grouped in with English style -Sparkling if they dont meet the production criteria for Sidra.
Just don’t use the American homebrewing terminology to split up meads, at least not blindly, it uses numerous terms that make no sense globally and end up being confusing (say, using hydromel, the French word for “mead”, for some light mead or whatever).
Keeved will be hard to distinguish as it will be hard to know if the process is used or not (for example I couldn’t say if in Estonia anyone used that process or not, most craft ciders are more in the French style than English style, but none has “keeved” on the label). Which brings me to the next point: using “English” in the style names doesn’t make sense, it would seem weird to put under “English style - sparkling” something that says on the label “Bottle fermented according to traditional champagne method”. I would go even as far as to say that no Estonian produced cider reminds me English style ciders. A lot of Estonian (craft) cider producers seem to be French influenced and are using brut-sec-doux to distinguish their ciders.
Hence I think something like this would makes more sense:
Cider - Still
Cider - Sparkling
Cider - Fruited
Cider - Hopped/Spices/Herbs
And possibly:
Applewine and Sidra
If they’re french style they’re keeved.
Usually in these kind of discussions there’s someone saying “guys please, we need less styles instead of more”. Guess I’ll be the one to say it then.
I can understand why some feel the need to be precise and add styles based upon production-methods. But does that really contribute to the use of the site? What is the point in splitting into different styles if a large portion of the people using this site / adding ratings can’t tell the difference?
As far as mead goes, I really like the Polish style of classification where they use honey-to-water ratio as bases for classification. The problem is that noone outside of Poland is using it, so it would be really difficult to admin as most meads don’t state the honey-to-water ratio on the label.
It may make sense to just make some general categories like:
Mead - Session
Mead - Traditional
Mead - Sparkling
Mead - Fruited
I don’t really see a point to have a separate categories for example for grape and apple mead.
But then the question is where do you put something that just says “cider” on the label? It may be keeved and it may be English style, no way to know…
Cider - Industrial might be an option. The “ciders” where cider (apple wine) is actually just one of the ingredients - Somersby/“Baltic” style. Of course, with those with no apple wine present still being unrateable.
Both cider and mead have traditions, nomenclature and separation which are heavily distinct from country to country. I agree with Benzai there. The broader the styles are, the less problems we have and more correct we are. While allowing for easily identifiable, “outlier” styles with enough representation.
For the same reason stout, porter and black IPA aren’t just labelled ‘dark ale’. They’re distinct styles that deserve recognition. I would say some users struggle to identify a Bitter, Golden Ale, Mild or English Pale Ale if it has no information on the clip.
With adequate guidelines I’d say most ciders would fit the main style categories I’ve suggested. Ok, English-Style Sparkling could have a different name. But most accessible bottled ciders from independent producers would fit in here. ‘Commercial / Industrial’ could cause confusion or overlap, though it would generally be for macro, mass-market flavoured cider such as Bulmers, Somersby, Rekorderlig etc…
My instinct would be that corked / caged 75cl bottles with an effervescent carbonation would be French style keeved. 500ml / 330ml, in general, are not. If it’s still difficult to determine, a cider admin could confirm with the producer.
Though I understand you fully, instinct isn’t enough, sadly. Unless it becomes a major thing worldwide to write “keeved” down, it’s pretty much a no-go, as “random Joe” likely won’t be able to say if it’s keeved or not, potentially creating far far more work for us. We need easily confirmable information.
Hmm I understand that pov, but I think that’s taking it a bit too far. However, I would advocate to combine or get rid of certain styles. Yes it could be interesting to go into the distinction deeper / further, but why not upgrade and perfect the tags-system for that?
To clarify, personally I don’t mind where this ends up. More styles, fine, it also means more stats. Less styles, fine, most people can’t tell the difference between some styles anyway so what’s the point?
Of course, people can learn. And one would assume anyone can learn -besides the fact that it is obvious- the difference between an RIS and a Black IPA. But even after nearly 18000 beers, I highly doubt that I would be able to distinguish between Imperial Stout and Imperial Porter if I was asked to in a blind tasting. Same goes for pale lager, premium lager, pilsener for instance. Yes some might be obvious, but a lot of them are so similar that only if you are a) an expert on those styles or b) actually know (or it is given on the label) the production process, you are able to distinguish between them.
Note: I know this would potentially mean we are going to throw our current system overboard. So theoretically I’d support it, but in real life: please don’t, we have more important things to worry about these days 
As said before this defintely doesnt fit together as Apfelwein in the southern German regions and Austria as well is more on the still side. And it is different in the production procees to all english style ciders.
BTW. There is a ton of Speierling (service tree fruit) apple wines around Frankfurt. It’s used traditionally.
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